The non conformer's Canadian Weblog

February 6, 2009

THE BOOGEYMAN CALLED FALSE TONGUES

The Boogeyman Called  “False Tongues” By Mel C. Montgomery

Of all the empty arguments offered by Cessationists, it is hard to find anything more bizarre than their claim of the existence of “false tongues.”  This doctrine is the new Boogeyman. http://brothermel.com/theboogeymancalledfalsetongues.aspx

For those of you who are unfamiliar with American culture, please allow me to explain who the Boogeyman is

The Boogeyman is an imaginary monster we sometimes frighten small children with.

We tell them, “If you don’t behave, the Boogeyman will get you!”  Or, “If you don’t do well in school, the Boogeyman will get you!

Little children will sometimes become convinced that there is a monster hiding under their bed or in their closet.  They say, “The Boogeyman is in there!

Sometimes also, when faced with a situation of which they are unfamiliar or for which they have no explanation, such as the sudden death of a family pet, or the appearance of a wart, children will exclaim, “The Boogeyman did it!”

The Boogeyman eixsts only in the imaginations of immature minds.

The False Tongues Boogeyman is the latest concoction in a long string of discreditied arguments the Cessationists have offered over the years.  Cessationists start from the false premise that genuine speaking in tongues ceased upon the death of the last apostle.  I have soundly disproven this starting point in my article, “Tongues Throughout Church History,”   I show from ancient Christian documents that speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Spirit continued on for several centuries after the last apostle died, and have frequently re-appeared in times of great revival up to this day.

Never-the-less, in spite of the clear evidence of Scripture and church history, Cessationists persist in arguing that speaking in tongues has ceased.  Needing to offer some explanation for the widespread occurrances of speaking in tongues today, they claim such instances are manifestations of “false tongues.”  Their argument is that when Christians today speak in tongues, they are doing so not under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but by the empowerment of Satan.

As of the year 2,000 a.d., 537 million born-again Christians speak in tongues.  This is 30% to 40% of the Body of Christ.

That is an awful lot of “false tongues.”

Are we truly to believe that Satan has taken possession of more than a third of the Body of Christ, without anyone noticing?

Here is why I do not believe in the existence of “false tongues”:

First, the Bible makes no mention of false tongues.  The Bible warns of false prophets, false apostles, false teachers, false Christs, and false accusers, but there is no warning of “false tongues.”

Second, among Paul’s specific instructions concerning speaking in tongues at Corinth, he does not question the validity of the tongues themselves, nor does he instruct us to do so either.

Third, if a false speaking in tongues does exist, which is inspired by the indwelling presence of an evil spirit, I believe such tongues would be impossible for a Christian to receive.  As Christians, we are the temple of the Living God (II Cor. 6:16), and the Spirit of God dwells in us (Rom. 8:11).  If evil spirits in the demon possessed could not tolerate the presence of Christ in his earthly ministry, I do not believe a tongues-inspiring evil spirit can cohabit with the Holy Spirit in a Christian’s heart.

Fourth, Jesus Christ gave us a specific promise that if we asked the Heavenly Father for the Holy Spirit, we would not receive a serpent or a scorpion–symbols of evil spirits–but we would receive the Holy Spirit.  “…how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”–Luke 11:13.  I do not believe that Christ’s promise has failed 537 million times.  I do not believe that 537 million Christians asked for this manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and that God stood idly by and allowed them to receive 537 million demons.

Fifth, there are no known reports of any manifestations of speaking in tongues in Christian churches that are clearly identifiable as “false tongues.”  I have spoken and interpreted public messages in tongues countless times now for 17 years.  Never once has an interpretation included, “Praise Satan!”  Or, “Jesus be accursed!”

Not once…in thousands of occurrances…In 17 years.

Sixth, all interpretations of tongues I have witnessed, participated in, or of which I am aware, always glorify Jesus Christ, extoll Christ’s victory over Satan, and exhort Christians to live holy lives and obey God’s written Word.  No manifestations of “false tongues,” inspired by evil spirits, would do so.

The following is an excellent example of the content of messages in tongues:

A highly-placed Southern Baptist official told me that some years ago, Billy Graham had been invited to speak to an assembly of students at an Assemblies of God College.

Billy Graham was on a very tight schedule.  He had just enough time for his plane to land, then to travel to the seminary, speak, and then rush to catch his next plane.  And as if that wasn’t difficult enough, Billy Graham’s plane landed late.

He was rushed to the seminary.  He quickly spoke his message to the students, and concluded.  He left the microphone and was several feet away, when someone stood up and spoke a message in tongues.  Billy stopped and listened.  A moment later, another student stood up and gave the interpretation.

Billy returned to the microphone and said:

“I was pressed for time today.  And the message I gave you actually had four points to it.  I had only enough time to give you the first two points.  That message in tongues, just gave you the last two points of my message.”

And he rushed out to catch his plane.

Are we to believe that an evil spirit was courteous enough to quietly attend this meeting and then finish Billy Graham’s message for him?

Has Satan joined God’s evangelistic team?

Seventh, we have no reports of false tongues, inspired by evil spirits, manifesting among the unsaved, and in places of false religion and sin.  False tongues have not appeared in houses of prostitution,  casinos, Jehovah’s Witnesses meetings, or at the Playboy Mansion.

Speaking in tongues occurs exclusively in Christian churches.  They involve only Born-again Christians.  The content of the messages glorify Jesus Christ.  These occur only as Christians praise, worship, and pray to the Heavenly Father.

It is a considerable stretch to believe that such manifestations could be anything but genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Are we really to believe that 537 million Christians experience continual demonic manifestations of false tongues, when false tongues were so rare that the Bible did not even address the issue?

This argument is nothing more than the Boogeyman.

Just as the children’s Boogeyman disappears from the room whenever the light is turned on, so also does the Cessationist’s False Tongues Boogeyman disappear when confronted with the light of Scripture, church history, present-day experience, and common sense.

Copyright 2006  Mel C. Montgomery.  All rights reserved.  Material may be copied and shared with others if done so without charge, in entirety, and if attribution is given.

We have done miracles in thy name.. they had claimed

Jesus next never denied their claim, and never accused that, said that their gifts were false..

the gifts were genuine.. rather it was the persons themselves who were false.. pretenders, imposter Christians

and that is true in many Pentecostals and non Pentecostal churches today as well..

Depart me from me he Jesus next said for I do not know you..”

Many even religious persons, people are falsely trying to reach Heaven, serve God in their own efforts neglect God’s provisions for them, God’s spirtual gifts. http://comeholyspirit.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/come-holy-spirit/

 
 
I have a whole site that deals with true and false Pentecostal bashing. http://postedat.wordpress.com/ but all critiques firstly need  to be balanced..
> Pentecostals who are inherently  unstable from the constant hypnotic emotional experiences.
and in reality this is just real crap, and slander  produced by one’s personal distortions, lies and bitterness.. for you find the same type of bad people in all churches, 30 percent of church people are basically saved, the rest, the 70 percent are not and thus they too   act weird..
>The pastor of such places has dictatorial authority over the church people.
is some more distorted crap for most churches for the last few centuries now too have a dictatorial pastor in  all denominations now as well, not just Pentecostals. And what you have never been to a Baptist church?
>Much of my criticism of Pentecostalism comes from my experience within the Oneness brand. However, in correspondence with people across the Unites States and the world, I find that the abuses of power and the intimidation of people exist among the several types of Pentecostalism, in addition to the Oneness sect. ( or even not just to Pentecostals)
I have also witnessed abuses within the Oneness brand Pentecostals and also within PAOC , Latter Rain Pentecostals, but also in Baptist, Brethren, Mennonite, Alliance, Catholic   churches, and so now what you did not?
– AND FOR A START THE UNACCEPTABLE ABUSES I HAD WITNESSED HAD VERY SIMILAR PATTERNS.. THEY WERE RELATED TO STEALING OF MONEY, DISTORTION PREACHING ON TITHING, BUT ALSO RELATED MAINLY ON THE INADEQUATE SUPERVISIONS BY THE RESPONSIBLE SUPERINTENDENTS ON THE BAD PASTORS WHO WERE FALSELY ALLOWED TO DO THEIR OWN THING, ACTED LIKE DICTATORS.
>Breaking the traditional bonds of friends and family is the most subversive thing that also the crooked Pentecostals Pastors do to maintain control, like many cults,
 
and this is a distorted crap  cause other denominations also  do the same thing, and there are righteous, good Pentecostals as well.
 
 
In reality too as well non Pentecostal denominations, such as fundamentalists, Brethren, Baptists also help to break family ties, encourage spouses, family members falsely to divorce especially a Pentecostal adherent. Now get honest, balanced, real
– ON TOP OF THAT I HAD NOTED THAT IN THE CROOKED CHURCHES, LOCAL CHURCH ELDERS TEND TO BE NON EXISTENT, even in other denominations
-AND yes   in the bad Pentecostal churches THE MEN tend to  STAY  AWAY FROM THE CHURCH IN DROVES, THE WOMEN OUTNUMBERED THE MEN IN THE ATTENDANCE which was DIFFERENT FROM THE many churches I had visited, attended.
>> Are they former criminals? This does not matter since all their previous sins are “under the blood.” Are they respectable people? This does not matter – they spoke in tongues, so they must be “changed and good people.” 
and they tithe, so they must be “changed and good people.”  This is undeniably true. not just in Pentecostal churches too, but in the Baptist, Alliance, other churches..
>Letters from an Ex-Pentecostal  February 2005
but  there are true and false pastors, true and false churches now in all of the Christians denominations for a start. Mention that truth for a start too.
There was so much emotional rubbish, lies, distortions in the rest of the letters critiquing the Pentecostals  that they were not at all  worth reading, it gives a real bad impression to the readers about the writers, posters firstly. The devil is the one sided accuser of the brethren and too many writers there clearly had fell into his hold.
I liked all the great non existent Bible references too… it seems the writers were not real Christians to start of with, they were  clearly ignorant, or ashamed off the Bible, God’s words.
I suggest that  you revise the letter seriously.
  
 In real life sibling rivalry, bullies, oppressors can be found everywhere, in our homes, amongst our associates, in our communities, on the net, in politics, civil and public services, even in the churches as well. These are the people who falsely abuse others and despise the human rights of others, and they falsely do think now that God himself approves of it or overlooks it all.. Nothing could be further from the truth. But our own final peace, reward will be in Heaven.Now about these false bullies, thugs, the proud oppressors, war mongers
 http://postedat.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/bullies-thugs-proud-oppressors-war-mongers/

For certainty also because of the demonic opposition the devil will try to discourage you from finding out reading about the Holy spirit, Charismatics, Pentecostals and the Bible. I know I have experienced this myself the last  40 years. So my sites will reflect, show you what I have learned, found out on these subjects for a start.

http://postedat.wordpress.com/2009/01/01/distortions-lies-false-critiques/

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“The ONLY way you can get to heaven is by being born again!!! THAT’S what Jesus told Nicodemus! prior to Pentecost and being Born again means also being Baptized with the Holy Spirit too after the day of Pentecost, as Jesus himself also had commanded… and everyone who was baptized with the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts showed it by speaking in toungues.. otherwise you truly are not Born again if you do not speak in toungues.. like it or not, believe it or not.. that was the New Testament pattern.. so do you speak in toungues, or why not?
 do see also

http://comeholyspirit.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/covet-to-prophesy-and-forbid-not-to-speak-with-tongues/ http://sacredtruths.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/god-can-speak-directly-to-you/
http://postedat.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/now-about-speaking-in-tongues;

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I really get a big chuckle in hearing from all those pretend, rather hot air speaking in tongues experts who themselves admit they cannot speak in tongues.

http://postedat.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/follow-after-charity-and-desire-spiritual-gifts-but-rather-that-ye-may-prophesy/

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Beware always of men and women, bullies, tormentors, control freaks,  persons, civil and public servants,  politicians, pastors, leaders, elders, Corporations too who falsely do, will try to enslave you, oppress you, exploit you even while they claim they are proclaiming the truth, democracy, trying to help you, etc.,
Is 51:23 ..your tormentors {and} oppressors, those who said to you, Bow down, that we may ride {or} tread over you; and you have made your back like the ground and like the street for them to pass over.
  
DO SEE ALSO
 
http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/verbal-abuse-is-always-unacceptable-too/
http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/the-too-common-abusive-silent-treatment/

August 25, 2008

FUNDAMENTAL EVANGELICALS AND SUPPOSEDLY PROFESSING CHRISTIAN CRITICS

1 Cor 15:33 Do not be so deceived {and} misled! Evil companionships (communion, associations) corrupt {and} deprave good manners {and} morals {and} character.

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived {and} deluded {and} misled; God will not allow Himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdained, or mocked by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside.)   For whatever a man sows, that  is (also)  what he will reap. ( he can  reap too what others have sowed now too)

2 Tim 3:13 But wicked men and imposters will go on from bad to worse, deceiving {and} leading astray others and being deceived {and} led astray themselves.

Acts 20:29 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (Acts 20:30 KJV)  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

http://postedat.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/little-red-riding-hood-meets-pinocchio-in-church/

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Billy Graham  Is God judging him now so that all men will see this before Graham goes on to hell where all pagans go?  You figure it out please. His vast cash flow at this time is obscene in view of the historic heritage of godly men over the ages, beginning with our Lord.  Billy Graham in no way can justify a true need for the cash flow he enjoys.  I wonder how many missionaries could go to the field if this giving were re-directed, leaving Graham enough for his needs alone?  “Evangelism” is how Graham first justified his invitation to the saints to give to his needs.  Don’t tell me, “He is worthy.”  That is a lot of bunk.  Vast wealth is never justified when we KNOW that the Lord of Harvest chooses the poor and plain saints to do His work.

Also, there is no justification, as far as I know, for the vast sums now being used to undergird the BGEA as the organization comes to a grinding halt as an evangelistic entity.  The end of everything comes one day or another, and the hangers-on need to move on and find other things to do.  Yet, the groupies cling to the wasting body of the big man like a pack of house cats to a dying widow.  In fact, I have wondered if Graham is not being propped up in the corner in a near comatose state as the troops shift and shuffle the cash.

http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/resource/christian_news_1999_graham.htm

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Note this When a  Church, it’s pastor is wrong on one doctrine you  can be assured there are many other errors too.

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Generally, mostly it is the insecure people in God, because of their still unresolved guilt, who falsely have an emphasis on forced evangelism, and they falsely do support enforced, forced tithing because they do not have enough of a relationship with God for HIM to supply all of their needs for their ministry. It should be noted that Jesus himself and the Original apostles had never requested tithing, and clearly they had not relied on tithing for all of their missionary endeavours. They trusted God for their leading and their needs to be met Jesus himself and the Original apostles financial request lay solely in helping the poor Christians. These same people generally are falsely trying to find God’s favour not by faith in Jesus Christ but falsely by their religious good efforts as they clearly still do not know what faith in God means..
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Romans 3 : 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
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Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. https://witnessed.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/tithing-2/

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No matter what the goal is, or how valueable it maybe,  leading others to Christ included, the ends do not justify the means by anyone, pastors, elders, deacons, others , and cheating, lying, stealing included now.. How you get there is as important as where you are going. Asked also now Moses and all the people of Israel who missed the promised Land cause they had simply refused to do it God’s way.

 

THE WAY MANY FUNDAMENTAL EVANGELICAL AND SUPPOSEDLY PROFESSING CHRISTIAN CRITICS  TRY TO MAKE FUN AT OTHER CHRISTIANS IS SICKENING, A VERY POOR THEOLOGY AND IS SADLY NOW ALSO TYPICAL OF THE MUCH TOO OFTEN FALSE BASHING OF THE PENTECOSTALS  TOO! It clearly makes me think that Satan himself is behind most of it still too. 
 
    
Fresh Fire Ministries Todd Bentley  – Canadian revivalist – preacher – Lakeland –  CHURCH WARNINGS – FALSE HEALING REVIVAL IN FLORIDA?  -Possessed – DEMONIC MINISTRY –  -Fraud -False Teacher –   devil possessed?-  False Prophet? outrageous   Highly Inaccurate “Prophet”- booted  -Dangerous Man- http://witnessed.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/disturbing-trend-sensationalized-religious-postings/     
 
 Now here is the problem I have , sadly and unacceptably fundamentals, others bashing the Pentecostals has been popular the last 30 decades as well, even though 75 percent of all Christian, even evangelical pastors, and  in all denominations are still bad, they too  are not spirit filled these days too..
 
Unlike the mostly control freaks, bullies, bashers, Pentecostal critics who also falsely try to shut me up, do delete my replies, I myself have been willing to talk about all of it openly and honestly too .
 

“Andrew Strom says there are 9 Lies in the Church; Truth Watch agrees, but   has he got the Right Answers?

An itinerant evangelist and preacher, Andrew Strom [AS] has recently posted a document on his website listing what he calls ‘nine lies’ afflicting today’s church. Truth Watch has reproduced Andrew’s nine lies because we are encouraged that some Charismatics and Pentecostals are aware that there is something amiss in many of their churches. Some of Andrew’s points support the objectives and claims made by Truth Watch. We agree with much of the criticism that AS offers regarding the state of the church. Sadly though, AS ends up looking in the wrong places for solutions.

[AS] “It is a sad fact that today’s church is deceiving itself in some very crucial areas. (Actually in many other areas now too)  Below are some plain facts that may shock a few people”:

[TW] Andrew’s [AS] opening statement is correct and accords with the premises contained in both our long and short declarations. More and more people appear to be recognising that there are some major problems in all of the evangelical church. (Not just in the Catholic, Pentecostal or Charismatic ones  )

[AS] 1. “Ask Jesus into our heart” is not in the Bible. Neither is “Give your heart to the Lord”, or repeating a “sinner’s prayer”. These practices do not exist in Scripture at all. The subject of salvation is the most important subject in the Bible and we are being lied to about it. These doctrines are a total fabrication. They were invented to make salvation “quick and convenient” Many church members today who are relying on these things are clearly not ‘saved’ at all”. ( Accept  now Jesus Christ as lord of your life is!)

[TW] AS is quite correct. This disturbing phenomenon has been apparent for a long time. A watered down gospel is ‘another gospel’ and is forbidden by Paul (Galatians 1:6-10). Because so many people are sold ‘cheap grace’ there are probably many in the church who are not really saved, many of whom leave. The church has suffered from this problem ever since Finney introduced such easy-believism ideas and techniques 150 years ago 9 (Even by the evangelists  DL Moody) . Ray Comfort has also correctly identified that claims concerning ‘decisions’ at many evangelistic events are misinterpreted as genuine conversion. This results in inflated figures that are used to support such techniques. True Biblical evangelism includes an emphasis on the sinful nature, God’s holiness and repentance, not just love and grace.

[AS] 2. “Church buildings do not exist in the Bible. They were invented around 200-300 AD, when the church was in serious decline. Only a backslidden church could fall so far away from the simplicity of the early church. Church buildings are anti-New Testament, and bring with them a host of problems and traditions. It was basically when the church fell into the hands of Rome that this concept of the “cathedral” really took over. And we are still spending millions on these monuments today”.(  and the tithe itself now was not used to support any church buildings, but solely the poor people and the church workers and their families, and the people who received the tithe were not allowed to own any property as well)

[TW] While we are opposed to unwarranted and lavish expenditure on buildings, especially if the cause of the gospel is likely to suffer, the fact is that Scripture doesn’t address the issue of owning property. AS’s point is therefore made rather more strongly than needed. ( But when most Church Properties theses day are owned, managed by a Cooptation that is not fully, daily accountable to the direct  congregation this is really unacceptable too)

His argument also misses an important point: for the first 200 years the churches could not own property freely as a persecuted and illegal sect. Even in the NT it is clear that the early church was open to meeting in public buildings (eg: Acts 19:8-10). It is interesting that as soon as they were permitted to do so many churches did buy or build their own facilities – implying there was no inherent opposition to ownership per se. Churches should be free to follow their consciences in this area, but should be open to a challenge based on a claim of unwise stewardship. This claim could be levelled at many churches today who spend a great deal of money on buildings at the expense of their willingness or ability to learn correct doctrine and spread the right gospel.

[AS] 3. “The ‘one pastor runs everything’ model is totally unscriptural. Far from running everything, in the book of Acts we find the word “pastor” NOT EVEN USED ONCE. (The early church did have strong leaders and elders. But it was never a “one man band” like we see today. And never was it so “controlling” either)”.

[TW] We are not sure what he implies when he says the word pastor is never used in Acts. It is used in Ephesians  and only once. But his basic premise is quite correct. Many church leaders assume they have some sort of divine right to rule. They become ‘nicolaitans’ (‘heavy shepherding’ – Revelation 2:6) – those who like to exert power over the people, often leading them into error in the process. A pastor’s proper role is that of the shepherd (closely associated with teaching) equipping the people to be mature and active in the faith (eg: Ephesians 4:11-16). The problem is not pastors per se, but rather pastors who abuse their authority and role and refuse to bow to the Scriptural standards for shepherding a church.

[AS] 4. “Tithing” is not a New Testament practice at all. And it is being shamefully abused by today’s preachers. In the New Testament we are told to give cheerfully – whatever we purpose in our hearts to give. Telling people that they MUST give 10% to the church or they are “robbing God” is totally sick – and a money-grubbing way of twisting Scripture. There is no evidence that the apostles EVER preached ‘tithing’ to New Testament believers. It was clearly regarded as an Old Testament practice”.

[TW] AS’s makes his point rather simplistically but he is correct. Tithing at most establishes a guideline for voluntary NT giving but it is not mandatory. Sadly, many churches make tithing an article of faith. Nicolaitan pastors are often associated with a heavy emphasis on tithing. Some use money gathered in this way to support a lavish lifestyle and/or they waste it on foolhardy ventures.

[AS] 5. “The words “prosper” or ‘prosperity’ was NEVER used by Jesus at all – and only exist a couple of times in the entire New Testament. Yet greedy preachers have built whole kingdoms upon them. The words – “sell what you have and give to the poor” and “deceitfulness of riches” and “you cannot serve God and mammom” and “woe to you that are rich” were DEFINITELY used by Jesus and the apostles. But we don’t hear these things preached too much, do we?”

[TW] We have made a feature of decrying the so called ‘faith-prosperity gospel’. It is a shameful deceit that will not go unpunished. It brings the Word of God and the witness of true Christians unjustifiably into disrepute (see 2 Peter 2:17-19). AS is quite right. Nicolaitanism, the false tithing message and faith-prosperity are often associated.

[AS] 6. “There were no Bible Colleges, Seminaries or degrees in the New Testament. The only people who seemed to have “Bible Schools” were the Scribes and Pharisees! The apostles were simple fishermen and tax collectors. It is likely that a number of them could not even read or write. What was their “qualification” for being in the ministry? Simply that they had SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH JESUS. The fact that people expect a “professional clergy” today with degrees from Bible College has helped to make the church sicker and more unscriptural than ever. Simple humble people with a calling from God often cannot get to minister because they do not have a “piece of paper” to make them ‘qualified’.-Yet another disaster for the church.”

[TW] While biblical scholarship is not wrong per se it is true that an over-emphasis on theological studies, as the main criteria for pastorship, is wrong. It is wrong because it is dangerous. A person’s gifting and calling for leadership and teaching comes from God, not a theological college. However, it does not follow that formal theological, (cemetary training ) is inherently wrong.

It makes sense for a group of churches to pool pastoral training expertise and resources – but any such institutions or arrangements should be orientated to serving the churches and training pastors as a priority. Pastors and elders should emerge from within the church, not from seminaries. A danger here is to overreact and deny the need for proper training – leading to poorly taught leaders who are weak in the Word and vulnerable to deception and sin. ( Sadly getting a seminary degree does not mean one is holy sprit filled, nor even Christian for that matter)

[AS] 7. “There is almost no evidence whatsoever that the early church had their “main meeting” on a Sunday. They gathered together ‘from house to house’ virtually every day! There were no church buildings. They did not dress up and “go to church”. There were no denominations. There were no separate groups with different ‘labels’. They lived their lives together – all the Christians in the local area. Love and fellowship and ‘koinonia’ were as natural to them as breathing. And the apostles in Jerusalem preached every day at huge open-air gatherings. -Not “hidden away” inside four walls. This was truly a “street church” in every way.” ( actually there church  meetings stared on the first day of the week, and they started Saturday at 6.00 pm and continued likely till the wee hours of Sunday morning, and similar meetings were often held during many other days of the week too)

[TW] AS is just plain wrong on this point. Christians may have met everyday in the very first days, but they also shared all in common (Acts 2:44-46). Most Christians don’t see this early post-Pentecost situation as normative for today (does Andrew believe we should share everything?). It is clear that the later regular practice of NT churches was to meet regularly once a week for public worship on the 1st day (Sunday)/”Lord’s Day” (eg: Acts 20:6-7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 cf Revelation 1:10).

Early historical examples of Sunday worship:

AS should also refer to the Diadache (written sometime between 70-120AD – believed by most scholars to be the earliest church document outside the NT)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html
14:1 But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure
(Chapter 11 shows they already had problems with many false prophets!)

Sunday worship in Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (c115AD) Chapter IX
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-17.htm#P1504_264385
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death

Sunday worship in Epistle of Barnabas (c100AD) Chapter XV(15)
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm
Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this, ] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead and when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.
We could give many other examples, and this all 300 years before Constantine made Sunday ‘official’ (but he was only recognising the actual practice of the churches).

AS rightly points out that there were no denominations in the NT. However, there were hardly the numbers to allow this or time for many errors to arise in a coherent manner. Unfortunately today denominations are a necessary evil if Christians are to worship in conscience freely yet still recognise each other as Christians. To force us all into one church necessarily leads to ecumenical ‘control-from-the-top’ or doctrinal compromise – the very things Andrew opposes!

A better solution to these percieved issues is not to abolish Lord’s Day worship, but to promote a consistent church life through the week and to seek unity based on a common committment to the Truth. [For more on this issue see our article on church unity]

[AS] 8. “The idea that you can replace the moving of the Holy Spirit with programs, programs and more programs just shows how low we have sunk. Man-made programs are everywhere today. The early church had much more of God and much less of ‘man’.”(  One of the most boring events in  life is to sit through these predictable unspiritual, sad events still too)

[TW] AS fails to say that the Spirit speaks through the Word ( but even then not solely and the Holy Spirit  still uses Prophecies now as well) , or that we need to return to the Word ( Firstly meaning Jesus Christ) . Hence he leaves the door open to people having “words” claimed to be of the Spirit. Such “words” are often used to justify unbiblical practices. This may be AS’s achilles heel. He has talked of going to set up a ministry in Kansas City, USA. If this means he plans to work with the so called Kansas City prophets it suggests AS’s doctrine in regard to the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit is flawed. [For further information read our letter to the pastor of the Upper Hutt City Fellowship concerning Rick Joyner]

[AS] 9. We preach a ‘humanistic’ Jesus today. – A Jesus who exists mainly for our own “happiness”. A Santa Claus who wants to rain down continual blessings upon us. A God of grace and mercy without judgement, righteousness or truth. Our gross misrepresentation of who Jesus really is, is one of the most serious offences of the modern church. Today’s church seems to worship a “plastic” Jesus – one that she has made in her own image. What an offence to God.

A lot of preachers are well aware that there is some thing very wrong with the church today.  (It is mostly the preachers themselves that are not right with God) They know there is little ‘fear of the Lord’. They know there is no deep repentance or deep moving of the Holy Spirit. They know that it is just the same old “game” being played every week. A lot of them are very aware of this. But they will not do anything about it. They will not rock the boat. And they will “squash” anyone who comes along trying to do something. They do not want a real “shaking”. There is too much to lose. They have their careers and their little ‘kingdoms’ at stake. This is the real truth of the matter. This is where the rubber truly meets the road.

That is why God is about to bring “Great Reformation”. He will not put up with these ‘hirelings’ any longer. He will not have them as leaders over His people. A lot of them are about to “lose their heads”. They will never lead God’s people again. This is what true ‘Reformation’ is all about. It is the process of replacing the old leadership and the old lies. -It is David taking over from ‘Saul’.

There is a ‘New Wineskin’ coming. In fact it is upon us. There is a new leadership arising – many of them trained in the ‘wilderness’ for such a time as this. The hour is now here. LET THE NEW LEADERS ARISE! The sad fact is that today’s church has sunk so low that it is almost a matter of people needing to be RESCUED OUT OF HER. I never thought I would say something as radical as that, but it is the truth.

The entire church is living a lie. Many inside her are told continuously that they are “OK” – that they are saved and headed for heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. Multitudes of them are headed directly for hell. The systemized LYING that is going on has deceived the leaders and the people alike. It is the blind leading the blind. We need to contend for these people – desperately. Much of the church is “lost”. They are mired in deception – an entire system of deception.”

[TW] Again, AS is generally right in his initial observations here, but his solutions badly miss the point. A true reformation only comes about through a faithful and repentant/prayerful return to the priority of the Word. Only as the church reforms in light of the Scriptures and becomes more faithful in proclaiming the gospel – can we regain hope of a genuine revival. Andrew’s over-emphasis on a supernaturally restored leadership is putting the cart before the horse. Godly leadership will only come from a return to the supremacy and priority of the Word and its associated truth. AS’s exaggerated view of the Spirit has distracted him. He needs to remember that the Holy Spirit comes to lead us into all truth, hence TW’s insistence on a return to a correct understanding of God’s Word. ” http://www.truthwatch.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=112

My concluding comment

 Our actions must be founded on what we know to be true from God’s Word, and that what is being directed us  personally to each one of us by the Holy Spirit, and to do that we all still do need to continually in reality live a Holy Sprit filled life. it starts by daily reading the Bible, having a Bible devotional, and sadly even most pastors do not do that too.

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