The non conformer's Canadian Weblog

August 10, 2009

Interesting reading, comments too, Liberal & Conservative Politicians do lie too


In my books a bad liberal is unacceptably as bad as a bad Conservative or a bad NDP, BQ.. no difference. Conservative Ministers are not the only one who lie, are not available for interviews, do not practice the accountability they preach too… so do Liberal ones.  The Canadian new Conservative party -wolves in sheep clothing and what about the Liberals?  As posted on the net the truth is that Canadians warming to minority rule: poll and everyone in  Politics these days is sadly still a big liar it seems too.. at the federal and at the provincial levels, they lie to get reelected  and THEY LIE WHEN THEY SAY THEY ARE HERE TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO LOOK AFTER THE GOOD CITIZENS OF CANADA IS BASICALLY THE REASON WE PREFER MINORITY GOVERNMENTS CAUSE WE DO NOT TRUST ANY MAJORITY PARTY. We need to and want to stop electing all liars into any government job, political office, newspapers, news media as well.   
Worries about the global economic downturn may be keeping Canadians awake at night and affecting their overall health, suggests a new poll done for the Canadian Medical Association. Economic downturn affecting health of Canadians, says medical association poll but  who realy cares in reality in fact of our political leaders?  Main Parties Deemed Arrogant by Canadians   Angus Reid Global Monitor –
McGuinty’s fib has tarnished his halo  The premier’s office said in his regular weekly itinerary that July 31 was set aside for “private” time. In fact, McGuinty flew to Mexico that day to pitch Toronto’s bid for the 2015 Pan American Games. Four days later, he came clean, announcing that “I travelled to Mexico City at the invitation of President Mario Vazquez Rana of the Pan American Sports Organization to discuss Toronto’s bid.” This lie was not, in the great sweep of political history, up there with “I never had sex with that woman.” Still, it was an intentional deceit of considerable significance to the Legislative Press Gallery.
NDP Leader Carole James says as she continues her tour of the province, more and more people are telling her they regret voting Liberal.  “We did a tour of businesses in a food fair in Burnaby and I had business owner call me over to apologize for voting Liberal.  He wanted to tell me he was sorry.”  James’ party says Gordon Campbell’s Liberals lied to the public by announcing the tax plan after they won the election, fact is that people here have good reason to be concerned by the HST. It will add a cost-of-living increase to numerous items that weren’t previously so expensive, and in a region of Canada like Vancouver, that can be devastating to the working class. As Scott Simpson reported in the Vancouver Sun, the HST will directly increase energy costs for customers of Terasen Gas and B.C. Hydro. The average cost for natural gas and electricity will likely jump by a combined total of $12 a month when the HST goes into effect on July 1, 2010.
“It’s been two months since the election in British Columbia delivered the Liberals to their third majority government, but already the backlash against them has been significant. In their short time since May 12, they’ve managed to alienate, irritate, and discombobulate residents in this province with their many frustrating unilateral policy moves. Even rather apolitical friends and coworkers have commented on the HST, and what an absolute disgrace it is to implement after giving no indication whatsoever that it was coming before the election. If anything, the Liberals had said that the HST would hurt the province’s ability to control their revenues, and didn’t want to be tied up in their fiscal maneuvers.
The Vancouver Chinese community sent a clear message to Gordon Campbell’s Liberal government Saturday — they will not stand for HST.  The controversial Harmonized Sales Tax has been the subject of severe criticism since being announced on July 23. Multicultural broadcaster Fairchild Radio is hosting an online poll on the HST, and more than 99 per cent of the thousands polled have shunned the tax. Some even said they had considered leaving Canada.
Drastic health cuts coming in Vancouver: B.C. NDP CBC News   Monday, August 10, 2009 | 3:08 PM PT  Hospitals and other health facilities across the Lower Mainland could be facing major cuts, according to the B.C. NDP.   The B.C. New Democrats say a document leaked to them reveals the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority plans to cut more than 6,000 surgeries and close a number of emergency rooms to slash costs. The authority plans to reduce neurosurgeries, vascular disease treatments, joint replacements and 11 other specialized areas, according to B.C. NDP health critic Adrian Dix. “We’re certainly not talking about nose jobs and tummy tucks; we’re talking about medically necessary elective surgery,” Dix told a Vancouver news conference Monday. “No one is suggesting that if someone comes into emergency, they’re going to allow them to die, because that would be absurd and illegal, but what we are saying is that the core services provided by the health authority are being cut,” said Dix. Under the proposal, Coastal Health would also close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms from September through March 2010 and eliminate 112 full-time jobs, according to Dix. On July 27, Dix made similar claims, saying documents leaked to his party suggested the province was considering major reductions to the Fraser Health Authority, east of Vancouver, because of a $160-million budget shortfall. 
 NDP says health care cuts show BC Liberals lied about protecting health care… The Canadian Press –   VANCOUVER, BC – Former BC health minister George Abbott is lashing back at NDP accusations that the government has broken its election promise to protect health care.  New Democrat health critic Adrian Dix has pointed to cuts proposed or announced by B.C. health authorities as evidence the government was hiding the true state of health care until after last May’s election, which gave the Liberals a third term.  Opposition leader Carole James weighed in Friday, saying Premier Gordon Campbell promised during the election campaign that the Liberals would protect patient services, but the cuts show he did not tell voters the truth. “Now, after the election, British Columbians are faced with dramatically longer wait times and long-term damage to the health care system,” James said. “This is a betrayal of public trust.”see also 

NDP critic and health CEO battle over cuts

” This is so Campbell can say that it is not working so he can privatize it. That is the sole purpose of his policies!!” ”   Coastal Health and Fraser Health could save a lot of money by cutting the overblown salaries of their respective CEOs and their administrations.” ” Another idiotic move by Gordon Campbell . It wasn’t long ago he slashed mental health medical treatment for kids and now he’s going after surgeries and hospital jobs . Why was he voted in again after he has already shown his true colours ?”” As long as there is enough money to pay for the Olympics – that is what really matters.” :And look for the liebrals to decide since they can’t provide the services they should, they will give everyone vouchers to use at their friends’ private clinics.  The beds / operating rooms will be closed and the limited number of doctors that we have will be encouraged to look for work at the private clinics.  As we then will not have enough doctors and nurses the liebrals will declare public health care dead (as we aren’t using it either because there are no doctors, etc.) and say “but we’re saving you all this money because we don’t have hospitals to run any longer.”  

That’s $144 extra in taxes that people in B.C. have to pay, and it’s on a single expense only. When you add up all of the expenses that will increase from the HST, it could result in revolt. But don’t expect the government to see it from that point of view. If anything, they argue, the HST will allow businesses to deliver products and services at a lower cost, which will allow them to lower their prices in tandem. But that may just be wishful thinking. Both Terasen Gas and Hydro warned that any savings would “likely not” be sufficient enough to offset the increases that will show up on utility bills.

The truth is that the residents of B.C. will likely not take this latest outrage lying down, or grimacing through clenched teeth as they did when the carbon tax was shoved down our throats. To take a page from Brian Mulroney’s legacy, nothing will do in a politician better than an ill-timed and ill-conceived tax. Certainly the tax will offer new-found riches to the province, but at a terrible political price. This is a price increase that will be seen and felt by everyone in the province, with 12% in taxes being taken off everything from restaurants to new houses. How many people are going to want to leave a 15% gratuity for their waitress, after they just tipped the government 12%? Worse still, how many people are going to want to eat out at all?

An Ipsos Reid poll shows that 85% of B.C. residents oppose the tax, with 70% being “strongly opposed”. The winners in this scenario are clear: the provincial government will get greater revenues than before, and a one-off $1.6 billion gift from Ottawa for “harmonizing”. Big business will, according to Finance Minister Colin Hansen, pay $1.9 billion less in taxes because they will be able to claim back the tax they pay. But where is the “win” for the people? The working class struggling to make ends meet in a recession? The frightening thing is that British Columbians are already “taxed to the max” as it is, without adding more weight to our backs.

Of course there is one way out of this. And the rage might just be strong enough to make it happen. A recall campaign gaining 40% of the signatures of registered voters to end the Liberals legislative majority may be possible. The downside to this idea, however, is that under B.C. Elections laws, any recall cannot start until 18 months after the election, which would be November 2010, four months after the HST goes into effect. Then again, four months into experiencing the HST first-hand might be just what’s needed to turf Gordon Campbell and his Liberal government out. Until then, the Liberals might want to try not doing anything else to enrage the people of this province, because the load of straw on that camels back is getting mighty heavy indeed.  “

Don’t blame authority, blame Liberal gov’t The Province –  You had to feel sorry Thursday afternoon for the citizens who turned out for a rare public Fraser Health Authority board of directors meeting to express their concerns over the region’s increasingly …

Fraser Health Authority slashes services Globe and Mail


B.C. Liberals down, NDP up in poll, Among the respondents, 38 per cent said they would vote for the B.C. Liberals, down eight per cent from the May 12 election. Support for the B.C. NDP was 46 per cent, up four per cent from the 

=All I can think of to say at this point is that I sure wish the election was coming next week.
=Shame on them and anyone that voted Liberal.
 =We need to recall Gordon Campbell and his “Liberals”.
 =What is it with B.C. that we can’t scare up some decent politicians to run the province? Oh wait. It isn’t just B.C., it’s the whole damn country!
=Thats because all the Lieberals can do is lie lie lie lie to the public.
=And they don’t give a crap about the taxpayer.”

see also

 The clearly dishonest Ontario  Liberal provincial government seems not to be any better than the bad BC Liberal government now as well.  It also seems to be hoping that while many are on summer holidays the issues will slip by unnoticed again too.   The Ontario  Liberal provincial government had quietly cancelled the promised review and next when caught   admitted it had cancelled the review but firstly still it had never told the others, the opposition parties that.  This big Ontario eHealth taxpayer’s money waste scandal overall where the governing Liberals were clearly and wrongfully now supposedly using the funds to support financially their own favorites is embarrassing to them so of course they want to hide it, cover it up or do away with it. Why isn’t Ontario eHealth Sarah Kramer and the others not  being charged with fraud, theft, absue of her position, infleunce peddling etc.? From what I can see she clearly was abusing her position of power to enrich both herself and her liberal friends too, isn’t that crimminal, fraud? ” He lied to get elected. If you read the Globe and Mail story it is clear that he has lied about this appointment. How many times will people in Ontario let this man lie to them?!?”  ” This story makes me so mad, along with McGuinty’s proposed HST this government has totally let us down. He should be thrown in Jail this whole government has just been a total fraud!” ” Whoever appointed McGuinty should be fired too!!  Bind leading the blind!!!”  ”  Are we expected to believe a guy who has continuously lied? This foolish lier has to go next election. ” ” It’s high time that McGuinty and Caplan took full responsibility for this fiasco.  Either you deal with it now or we the voters will deal with it at the next election.  This won’t be allowed to wither and die.   “

see also  


Former eHealth Ontario chief executive officer Sarah Kramer landed the top job at the troubled agency after Premier Dalton McGuinty directly intervened in her appointment, over the objections of some of his own civil servants. Ms. Kramer abruptly resigned from eHealth Ontario in June, amid scandal over lucrative contracts awarded without competitive tenders and nickel-and-dime spending by consultants. It became one of the most politically damaging episodes of the McGuinty government’s 5 1/2 years in power.  Senior officials in the Ministry of Health had opposed the selection of Ms. Kramer because they felt she did not have enough experience to oversee the daunting task of modernizing the province’s medical records, one of the government’s top priorities, according to sources close to the situation.  Any obstacle to Ms. Kramer assuming her new duties disappeared the day she met face to face with Mr. McGuinty in his Queen’s Park office, documents show.  Ms. Kramer did not have to go through the normal channels government agencies use to find a chief executive officer. And Mr. McGuinty was directly involved in her hiring, according to sources close to the situation. The board of directors of a government agency typically appoints the top executive, following a competitive search that identifies a short list of candidates. But Ms. Kramer did not have to compete against others, and she was appointed directly by the premier through an order in council.  Her appointment was requested by Dr. Hudson, a neurosurgeon and former hospital president renowned for fixing problems in health care, and Mr. McGuinty’s hand-picked choice for chairman of eHealth Ontario.  Dr. Hudson told the Premier he would take the job on one condition: if he could hire his protégé as chief executive officer, according to the sources. Dr. Hudson had worked with Ms. Kramer at Cancer Care Ontario, where he was president and she was the chief information officer. He was under enormous pressure to fix the province’s medical records and he wanted someone he could trust to get the job done, the sources said.  “Hudson made it very clear to all kinds of people that it was a two-for-one deal,” said a source close to the situation.   Jane Almeida, a spokeswoman for Mr. McGuinty, declined to discuss the Premier’s involvement in the matter. Ms. Kramer could not be located for comment. 

Opposition wants answers after learning eHealth review never started Toronto Star – Romina Maurino –  The government has some explaining to do amid revelations that a promised, and then cancelled, independent review of scandal-plagued eHealth Ontario never got underway, the opposition parties said Monday. Documents obtained by the New Democrats under Freedom of Information laws show no contract was ever signed for PricewaterhouseCoopers to begin a third-party review of the agency – a fact verified by both eHealth and PricewaterhouseCoopers.    


Premier Dalton McGuinty is denying he intervened in the appointment of Sarah Kramer as the CEO of eHealth Ontario over the objections of some civil servants.  McGuinty’s comments come after a Globe and Mail report that the premier had a hands-on role in appointing eHealth’s leaders and appointed Kramer through an order-in-council despite objections from Ministry of Health officials. New Democrat Peter Kormos says McGuinty has no credibility when it comes to eHealth, and that it’s clear the premier’s office was consulted before Kramer was hired and should be accepting responsibility.


Inside Queen’s Park: ehealth boondoggle is sick theatre  The malodorous issue is that of eHealth and more precisely what’s been spent in untendered contracts and related expenses.  All this first erupted last spring with former eHealth CEO Sarah Kramer’s resignation followed shortly by board chairman Dr. Alan Hudson, after the opposition parties howled about lavish spending and $2,700 per diem payments as part of $5 million in untendered contracts awarded to consultants which has since been revised to about $15 million.   Health Minister David Caplan exacerbated the mess by stepping deeper into it even as he tried to stomp out the fires burning around his bailiwick. First, it was just isolated, then eHealth announced it would have PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP review its spending. Then Caplan called off PWC saying the auditor general would take the lead in the investigation.  The opposition knew from the first whiff they were onto something and at the end of last month the government tried to bury its scent under a tsunami of paperwork, releasing six thick binders with hundreds of pages of receipts, meeting minutes, and other documents.  That’s when it really hit the fan because on a slow summer’s day with nothing else of much importance going on and with the imminent settling of the Toronto city workers strike at hand, everyone could smell a good story fermenting despite the rotting stench of piled up garbage outside the leafy confines of Queen’s Park.  Politics is optics and when it comes to government spending, it doesn’t get much better than this. Between 2007 and 2008 eHealth Ontario spent $82 million. We know now at least $15 million was untendered and went to a company with close political ties to the Liberal Party. That’s probably not a surprise. One of the perks of office is doling out contracts and work to the people who helped get you there and will help keep you in power. It’s the nature of the spending which is starting to look awfully ugly. With a recession killing jobs and shrinking household incomes, the McGuinty government is up to its neck in embarrassing material. Aside from the $400 limousine rides Kramer took from Toronto to London, Ont.; aside from eHealth board member Khalil Barsoum’s $2,400 round-trip flight from Florida, associated car rentals, and road tolls so he could make it to a Toronto board meeting; and aside from paying other board members to fly to Toronto or in some cases, $380 a day to “prepare” for said meetings, the real stench here is that after spending something in the region of $650 million, the agency and its predecessor have almost nothing to show for it. There is no plan in place. There is no privacy legislation model such as British Columbia’s eHealth (Personal Health Information Access and Protection of Privacy) Act to look at. Nada. Zilch. What we have instead is a consultant paid $2,700 a day who then bills an extra $5 for tea and cookies. 

eHealth third-party review was never started  TORONTO — The opposition parties are asking for answers amid revelations that a promised, and then cancelled, independent review of scandal-plagued eHealth Ontario never got underway.  Documents obtained by the New Democrats under Freedom of Information laws show no contract was ever signed for PriceWaterhouseCoopers to begin a third-party review of the agency.The government has said it cancelled the review because it would have duplicated efforts by Ontario’s auditor general, who is also probing the agency. But NDP critic France Gelinas says the newly released documents show that the government never planned to go ahead with the independent report. She says Health Minister David Caplan and Premier Dalton McGuinty have some explaining to do after suggesting in the legislature that the review was underway and that results could be expected by the end of the summer. Progressive Conservative Lisa MacLeod says the lack of any contract shows the whole process was a smokescreen and wants to bring eHealth in for all-party questioning to get some answers. Lying “Their line of defence was always: `We will go to the bottom of this, we have retained the best third-party, PricewaterhouseCoopers,” Gelinas said.  “Then, in the middle of the summer, we learn that basically, it was all empty – they haven’t done anything, they were not going to expect anything out of them, it was all empty rhetoric.” Gelinas said Caplan and McGuinty “needed to defend themselves so they used those lines, but those lines misled us in the house, they misled Ontarians, and they misled all of the taxpayers.”  McGuinty had also fended off questions in the legislature, saying in June: “I think we need to wait for the report coming from PricewaterhouseCoopers. We need to wait for the information and the advice to come from the auditor.” Progressive Conservative Lisa MacLeod, who wants to bring eHealth in front of a sub-committee for all-party questioning, said the lack of any contract showed the whole process was “a smokescreen to save the minister’s job.” The latest details are just the latest of a series facts about the scandal that led to the resignation of former eHealth CEO Sarah Kramer and former board chair Dr. Alan Hudson in June, after the Conservatives and New Democrats complained the agency gave out $5 million in untendered contracts to consulting companies. Documents released by the government since then showed the value of those untendered contracts was closer to $16 million, with the biggest ones going to companies the opposition parties say have ties to the Liberal government.  EHealth was set up last year to create electronic health records after the first provincial agency given that task, Smart Systems for Health, spent $650 million but failed to produce anything of lasting value before it was quietly shut down last September.

 Meanwhile in Liberal Quebec…
Aug. 11 — Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec, Canada’s biggest pension-fund manager, had an unrealized first-half loss of C$5.7 billion ($5.2 billion) on real estate, wiping out a 5 percent gain by other investments.  The Caisse’s real estate debt holdings declined to C$8.6 billion on June 30 from C$10.8 billion at the end of 2008. The fund lost a record 25 percent in 2008.   The Caisse had unrealized losses of C$2.2 billion on real estate debt, C$1.8 billion on declining values on properties, C$1.3 billion related to private equity and infrastructure, and C$400 million on asset-backed commercial paper. Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec had C$120.1 billion in assets on Dec. 31.  Last year, the Caisse lost $39.8-billion or 25 per cent of its assets, making it among the worst performing pension funds in the country. The pension fund stubbornly refused to release its financial results, despite numerous reports of its losses, and the Caisse’s performance became a hot-issue  in Quebec political circles and the province’s election campaign.
No wonder the ex Quebec Liberal finance Minister Monique Forget resigned suddenly and unexpectedly and the new Minister of Finance is not any better, clearly an uncompassionate person now as well..

Quebec “Finance Minister Raymond Bachand  suggested clients of disgraced investment adviser Earl Jones should take some of the blame themselves for losing tens of millions of dollars in what police say was a Ponzi scheme”  and he had “scolded the alleged victims of Earl Jones for not having reported their financial adviser to the government’s Autorité des marchés financiers. some of the same elderly people who must turn to food banks after, it is alleged, they’ve been swindled out of their retirement savings. Humility would have been more appropriate on Bachand’s part, considering how badly the government in general and he in particular have handled also the Jones affair. Saturday was the first time since the scandal broke a month earlier that Bachand even acknowledged that he is the minister responsible for the financial sector by saying something about the affair.” The Quebec chief also next did not approve of it too. “It’s such a cruel story,” Quebec Premier Jean Charest said. “They were not very rich people.” Premier Jean Charest has been chosen to preside at a celebration marking the 25th anniversary of the election of the much hated ex Conservative Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney’s first majority. How approriate now as well? Early Jones was charged July 28 with four counts each of fraud and theft. He was freed on $30,000 bail and is living in an undisclosed location following threats. While clearly pervrse Brian Mulroney is still a free man. Jones clients furious following minister’s comments Ottawa Citizen Quebec “mean spirited”: Jones victims The Gazette (Montreal)

McGuinty hammers Ottawa for ignoring stranded woman “Something is fundamentally wrong when we can’t count on the Canadian government to stand up for Canadians – I’m not sure I can put it any more directly than that, “Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty. Now the  People who live in glass houses need to be reminded still not to throw rocks at others, and to practice firstly what they preach unto others, for I would rather see a sermon firstly actually practiced instead of merely lip serviced.  The premier of Ontario himself  does not stand up for all Canadians now for sure too… nor for all of the people of Ontario for that matter.. or he would not let the crooked quota Ontario police, cops now and many others, such as eHealth consultants  also to fleece his flock too.

In reality too many of our politicians still do lie too often as well..  

“Canadian politicians of all stripes lie when they spout such nonsense as: “In Canada, we believe you should get the medical treatment you need with a government health insurance card, not a credit card.”

Really? Try paying for your medical treatment by waving around your health card when you need (a) prescription drugs (b) extra nursing care (c) physiotherapy (d) timely post-operative rehab (e) a nursing home bed or (f) a growing number of medications, tests, treatments and procedures which our governments are delisting almost daily in a bid to cut costs. Wasteful spending in both the public and private sectors plagues both countries.

In fact, 30% of Canadian health care is privately funded while almost half of the U.S. system is publicly funded — for the poor (medicaid), seniors (medicare) and U.S. military. Neither system is purely “public” nor “private.”    In Canada, these are excessive wait times for treatment and the continual delisting of drugs and services from medicare.  ( particularly true as you next get older too, I am waiting months for a knee specialist))

Neither the Canadian  minister  of public safety Peter Van Loan nor Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, who has responsibility for managing all consular cases involving Canadians in need of help abroad, have commented on the case since Mohamud’s identity was confirmed through a DNA test that showed she was a 99.99% match with her son.  Key Canadian minister goes M.I.A. as anger grows, If you are a citizen in trouble in a strange land, you look to Lawrence Cannon.  But actually finding the foreign minister, the man responsible for Canadians abroad, is another matter. Lawrence Cannon, charged with aiding Canadians abroad, is ‘unavailable’ as Kenyan saga drags on.  Canada’s fourth foreign minister since 2006 isn’t on vacation. He’s hard at work. A review of his agenda for the last week, as it became clear that Mohamud had been wrongfully denied the assistance that comes with her citizenship, suggests Cannon’s priorities just lie elsewhere. There was no word from Cannon on the need to get Mohamud home quickly and to right the wrongs done by Canadian officials.” Unfortunately, minister Cannon is not available for an interview,” said spokeswoman Natalie Sarafian.  An interview request sent yesterday to the minister’s office was turned down. Calls to two of his three constituency offices yielded no clues as to his whereabouts.
MINISTRIAL ACCOUNTABILITY. This means, that when somebody screws up in a given department, its the ELECTED MINISTER OF THE CROWN that takes full responsibility. The Minister is accountable to the public, NOT a low level employee. Do we blame the  Assembly Line Workers for GM’s mess? NO. We blame the CEO. Its the samething in Government.”
Liberal Iggy had nothing to do with this as well. Stephen Harper once said he had no plans to stack the Senate with unelected representatives, suggesting it was “a dumping ground for the favoured cronies of the prime minister.” Next when he’s actually a prime minister, he’s done exactly what he said he wouldn’t do. And falsely Harper still blames the Liberals for his lies, poor acts, or whatever but clearly he Harper lacks integrity too and thus patronage and croneyism continues to rule the day in Canadian politics and taxpayers are still the big losers. Conservative supporters  go along with Harper’s lies again too.
I wrote before and said that  I once was naïve and believed that the news was honest, professional , objective but now almost daily I encounter contradictory spin doctors lies under the heading of news.. The Conservative and Liberals news media both spin..
for example-
Posted for all to know the reality .. Canada’s news media lies, contradict each other often too..

Conservatives maintain slight poll lead Reuters Canada – David Ljunggren, Rob Wilson –  OTTAWA (Reuters) – Canada’s governing Conservatives are still slightly ahead in public opinion polls over the main opposition Liberals, but would have no


One hour later..


Liberals lead Tories 36% to 33% Vancouverite –  A majority (55%) ‘disagrees’ (28% strongly/27% somewhat) that ‘the Liberal Party is ready again to govern Canada’. However, 45% ‘agree’ (12% strongly/33% …

so what spin do we believe here too?

 Pathetic, awful liars. Recall the liars.

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